Winter Mountaineering

[sandy saunders]

Good day all ..... new to the group, but a regular poster to uk.rec.walking,
walking being my main outdoor activity.

However, I have summitted a few high peaks over seas and want to
improve/move to mountaineering. Peaks I have done are Pequena Alpamayo,
Huayna Potosi and Point Austria (Bolivia) and Mera Peak (almost), Pokalde,
Gokyo Ri, The Nameless Tower Peak, Kalapatar, early section of Lobouche East
from High Camp and High Camp Island Peak.

Now I am considering going on Jagged Globe's Winter Mountaineering course in
Scotland (Glen Coe region) in Jan 2007. I can often worry about exposure,
so my question is, how would the following rate for me against what I have
done - quoted as possible routes by Jagged Globe:

Chaos Chimney - Aonach Dubh West Face
Left Hand Twin - Aonach Mor
Aonach Eagach Ridge
A traverse of Aonach Mor and Aonach Beag from the chairlift Glen Nevis
Castle Ridge and Ledge Ridge - Ben Nevis
The Ballachulish Horseshoe
Car Mor Dearg Arete to Ben Nevis

Cheer in advance

[Peter Clinch]

Post by sandy saunders
Now I am considering going on Jagged Globe's Winter Mountaineering course in
Scotland (Glen Coe region) in Jan 2007. I can often worry about exposure,
so my question is, how would the following rate for me against what I have
Chaos Chimney - Aonach Dubh West Face
Left Hand Twin - Aonach Mor
Aonach Eagach Ridge
A traverse of Aonach Mor and Aonach Beag from the chairlift Glen Nevis
Castle Ridge and Ledge Ridge - Ben Nevis
The Ballachulish Horseshoe
Car Mor Dearg Arete to Ben Nevis

Balla Horseshoe would almost certainly be a non-issue: it's a pretty
straightforward bimble without snow and I can't think it would be that
tricky with it. Chaos Chimney is a grade II or III winter climb (IIRC),
and will require ropework on its steep pitches. If you've not been
winter climbing before (or even summer climbing!) then it probably
wouldn't be the best place to start!
Not done anything on Aonach Mor so no comment on those.
Aonach Eagach I've not tried in winter so can't be sure, but it's graded
I/II IIRC so should be fairly straightforward /technically/. The degree
to which the mind-game will be a problem is difficult to call with the
information given, because I don't know how exposed the routes to the
peaks you listed are.

But that they have the Balla horseshoe in shows they're not wedded to
the tricky stuff. I imagine their guides would be able to match you up
with a suitablle route after the basic instruction (I assume you're not
thrown straight in at the deep end!).

Pete.

[sandy saunders]

Post by Peter Clinch
Balla Horseshoe would almost certainly be a non-issue: it's a pretty
straightforward bimble without snow and I can't think it would be that
tricky with it. Chaos Chimney is a grade II or III winter climb (IIRC),
and will require ropework on its steep pitches. If you've not been winter
climbing before (or even summer climbing!) then it probably wouldn't be
the best place to start!

Never done actual climbing, that is using equipment for safety, but I have
been in roped teams on Mera Peak, Pokalde, and on Pokalde we used a jumar
on fixed ropes for the last 60 or so feet -

Loading Image... - this was
coming around the corner to the summit

and on the Bolivian peaks -

Loading Image... - approaching Huayna
Potosi

Loading Image... - approaching
Pequena Alpamayo

Loading Image... - the route up
Alpamayo

Post by Peter Clinch
Not done anything on Aonach Mor so no comment on those.
Aonach Eagach I've not tried in winter so can't be sure, but it's graded
I/II IIRC so should be fairly straightforward /technically/. The degree
to which the mind-game will be a problem is difficult to call with the
information given, because I don't know how exposed the routes to the
peaks you listed are.
But that they have the Balla horseshoe in shows they're not wedded to the
tricky stuff. I imagine their guides would be able to match you up with a
suitablle route after the basic instruction (I assume you're not thrown
straight in at the deep end!).

No, not straight into the deep end. First day is spent refreshing winter
skills, then remainder of the days on Grade 11/111 routes.

Thanks for the reply Peter, will do some more 'heart and head' searching!!!!

[sandy saunders]

Post by sandy saunders
http://www.thewalkzone.co.uk/bolivia/alpmyo/alpmy-11.JPG - the route up
Alpamayo

Along the crest ................... not the head-wall!!

[Mike Clark]

Post by sandy saunders

Post by Peter Clinch
Balla Horseshoe would almost certainly be a non-issue: it's a pretty
straightforward bimble without snow and I can't think it would be that
tricky with it. Chaos Chimney is a grade II or III winter climb (IIRC),
and will require ropework on its steep pitches. If you've not been winter
climbing before (or even summer climbing!) then it probably wouldn't be
the best place to start!

Never done actual climbing, that is using equipment for safety, but I have
been in roped teams on Mera Peak, Pokalde, and on Pokalde we used a jumar
on fixed ropes for the last 60 or so feet -
http://www.thewalkzone.co.uk/nepal-2006/stage-5/120706c.jpg - this was
coming around the corner to the summit
and on the Bolivian peaks -
http://www.thewalkzone.co.uk/bolivia/hp/pots-03.jpg - approaching Huayna
Potosi
http://www.thewalkzone.co.uk/bolivia/alpmyo/alpmy-08.JPG - approaching
Pequena Alpamayo
http://www.thewalkzone.co.uk/bolivia/alpmyo/alpmy-11.JPG - the route up
Alpamayo

Looking at those photos, I think you should be fine on most of the
routes you've listed for the Winter skills course.

[snip]

Post by sandy saunders
No, not straight into the deep end. First day is spent refreshing winter
skills, then remainder of the days on Grade 11/111 routes.
Thanks for the reply Peter, will do some more 'heart and head' searching!!!!

Climbing is very much a head game, but I think judging from your photos
the winter skills course should be within your limits.


Mike

[sandy saunders]

Post by Mike Clark
Climbing is very much a head game, but I think judging from your photos
the winter skills course should be within your limits.

Its not a Winter Skills course as such, its Scottish Winter Mountaineering,
hence the Grading of the routes.

I must admit, out in Nepal this year when the guide explain about the
exposure on final fixed-rope section up to Pokalde summit I was a little
nervous. However, once clipped on to the fixed rope and I started jumarring
up ..... I found it quite exciting and fun. Maybe attached to the
fixed-rope gave me a little comfort, although as always the mind was fully
concentrated on getting to the top.

[Steve Pardoe]

Hi, Peter, Sandy & all,

Post by sandy saunders
Now I am considering going on Jagged Globe's Winter Mountaineering course
in Scotland (Glen Coe region) in Jan 2007. I can often worry about
exposure, so my question is, how would the following rate for me against

<Peter>> Not done anything on Aonach Mor so no comment on those.

I've not done nearly as much Scottish Winter stuff as I'd like to, but there
are some pics of us bimblies on Aonach Mor at

http://www.pardoes.nildram.co.uk/pages/aonach.htm

This looks so much more tame than your own (excellent) photos that I doubt
whether it will hold much fear for you on the JG course.

I'm sure you'll have worked this out for yourself, but if you are planning
to move on after the JG course to taking your own responsibility in the
Alps, say, then some additional skills in route selection, leading,
protection, additional ropework such as crevasse rescue, etc etc might be a
good idea. One way is to hire a Guide by the day (as we have done a couple
of times) and then you can get exactly what you want (subject always to
conditions).

Hope this helps, and perhaps you can report back after the trip!

Steve P

[sandy saunders]

Post by Steve Pardoe
<Peter>> Not done anything on Aonach Mor so no comment on those.
I've not done nearly as much Scottish Winter stuff as I'd like to, but
there are some pics of us bimblies on Aonach Mor at
http://www.pardoes.nildram.co.uk/pages/aonach.htm

Think I saw your photos when I did an image search in Google. Look good to
me, and any snow and ice is dramatic and fun.

Post by Steve Pardoe
This looks so much more tame than your own (excellent) photos that I doubt
whether it will hold much fear for you on the JG course.
I'm sure you'll have worked this out for yourself, but if you are planning
to move on after the JG course to taking your own responsibility in the
Alps, say, then some additional skills in route selection, leading,
protection, additional ropework such as crevasse rescue, etc etc might be
a good idea. One way is to hire a Guide by the day (as we have done a
couple of times) and then you can get exactly what you want (subject
always to conditions).

Many thanks, not sure if I would go leading/in the Alps, I just want to
expand my skills in the winter climbing as I have a little idea for another
summit in Nepal before the body packs up!. Bit of instruction in climbing
like JG offer would give me a feel for my capabilities for the next
'possible' trip. Still trying to make a decision about the course, but the
ng comments give me plenty of assurance.

Cheers

[Mike Clark]

Post by sandy saunders
Good day all ..... new to the group, but a regular poster to uk.rec.walking,
walking being my main outdoor activity.
However, I have summitted a few high peaks over seas and want to
improve/move to mountaineering. Peaks I have done are Pequena Alpamayo,
Huayna Potosi and Point Austria (Bolivia) and Mera Peak (almost), Pokalde,
Gokyo Ri, The Nameless Tower Peak, Kalapatar, early section of Lobouche East
from High Camp and High Camp Island Peak.
Now I am considering going on Jagged Globe's Winter Mountaineering
course in Scotland (Glen Coe region) in Jan 2007. I can often worry
about exposure, so my question is, how would the following rate for
me against what I have done - quoted as possible routes by Jagged
Chaos Chimney - Aonach Dubh West Face
Left Hand Twin - Aonach Mor
Aonach Eagach Ridge
A traverse of Aonach Mor and Aonach Beag from the chairlift Glen Nevis
Castle Ridge and Ledge Ridge - Ben Nevis
The Ballachulish Horseshoe
Car Mor Dearg Arete to Ben Nevis
Cheer in advance

I've done Aonach Eagach Ridge, the traverse on Aonach Mor, the
Ballachulish Horshoe and the Car Mor Dearg Arete, but all in summer
conditions, not winter. Of those the Aonach Eagach Ridge has the most
exposure with fairly steep scree slopes in places, that end in even
steeper cliffs below. Technically all of the routes have places where in
winter a slip could result in a long and fatal fall. However where there
is the most serious exposure it would usually also be possible to easily
protect that section with a rope belay. For some of those routes once
committed you either have to complete the route to the far end or else
return to the beginning, since there is no easy escape part way along.

It really is difficult to judge whether you will have a problem without
ever having been with you on a route. I think your best bet is really to
try it and see what happens. The instructors on the course should be
competent to deal with whatever your abilities turn out to be.

Cheers,

Mike

[sandy saunders]

Post by Mike Clark
I've done Aonach Eagach Ridge, the traverse on Aonach Mor, the
Ballachulish Horshoe and the Car Mor Dearg Arete, but all in summer
conditions, not winter. Of those the Aonach Eagach Ridge has the most
exposure with fairly steep scree slopes in places, that end in even
steeper cliffs below. Technically all of the routes have places where in
winter a slip could result in a long and fatal fall. However where there
is the most serious exposure it would usually also be possible to easily
protect that section with a rope belay. For some of those routes once
committed you either have to complete the route to the far end or else
return to the beginning, since there is no easy escape part way along.

I am sure ropes would be used for the more exposed section of the Aonach
Eagach ridge if that was a route. Been at the Pap of Glencoe end of the
ridge in summer, at Sgorr nam Fiannaidh, to have a look along the ridge. but
never ventured along it! I have done Striding Edge and Sharp Edge in the
Lake District, plus Tryfan's north ridge in the Ogwen valley, Snowdonia, all
with some degree of exposure but not to the extent of the Aonach Eagach.
Didn't find those a problem, athough all done in non-winter conditions.

Post by Mike Clark
It really is difficult to judge whether you will have a problem without
ever having been with you on a route. I think your best bet is really to
try it and see what happens. The instructors on the course should be
competent to deal with whatever your abilities turn out to be.

My thoughts were its a lot of money to pay for a short period if I were to
have problems, although as you say the guides will certainly judge the
capability of clients before tackling a route.

[Mike]

Post by sandy saunders
Now I am considering going on Jagged Globe's Winter Mountaineering course
in Scotland (Glen Coe region) in Jan 2007. I can often worry about
exposure, so my question is, how would the following rate for me against

Hi Sandy, your list is in descending difficulty! There will be a bit of
exposure but it's easy to ignore it when climbing or enjoy it if you want!
I wouldn't have thought JG would put you somewhere you are unhappy with and
I would think you would be very safe.
One point to bear in mind is January is short of daylight and not snow sure
so cross your fingers!
You won't have long days, but be prepared to walk in the dark.
Essentially climbing is when you have to use to your legs and hands to get
where you want to go.
Go for it, you'll enjoy it!
HTH Mike

[John Abramson .org.uk>]

On Thu, 23 Nov 2006 16:01:04 GMT, "sandy saunders"
<***@ntlworld.com> wrote:
...

Post by sandy saunders
Now I am considering going on Jagged Globe's Winter Mountaineering course in
Scotland (Glen Coe region) in Jan 2007. I can often worry about exposure,
so my question is, how would the following rate for me against what I have

Is this JG's "Introduction to Winter Mountaineering"? If so, I did it
a couple of years ago and I would very much doubt you'd be faced with
anything you were seriously uncomfortable with. JG's instructors have
generally led trips around the world and are used to assessing
capabilities of clients. IME they deserve their reputatiion as one of
the most professional companies around (though they're by no means the
cheapest).

[sandy saunders]

Post by John Abramson .org.uk>
Is this JG's "Introduction to Winter Mountaineering"?

No its the next one on Winter Mountaineering. I did consider the
Introduction course, but thought maybe with my background it might be more
suitable with the Mountaineering course.

Post by John Abramson .org.uk>
If so, I did it
a couple of years ago and I would very much doubt you'd be faced with
anything you were seriously uncomfortable with. JG's instructors have
generally led trips around the world and are used to assessing
capabilities of clients. IME they deserve their reputatiion as one of
the most professional companies around (though they're by no means the
cheapest).

For what they offer ie accommodation, halfboard and instructions, they were
very competitive with other companies I found while searching.

[k***@hotmail.com]

Post by John Abramson .org.uk>
Is this JG's "Introduction to Winter Mountaineering"? If so, I did it
a couple of years ago and I would very much doubt you'd be faced with
anything you were seriously uncomfortable with. JG's instructors have
generally led trips around the world and are used to assessing
capabilities of clients. IME they deserve their reputatiion as one of
the most professional companies around (though they're by no means the
cheapest).

I did their Introduction to Winter Mountaineering course too a few
years ago.
At the introductory chat on the Monday morning, they ask what you want
out of the course and they construct the weeks activities accordingly.
I only did a pitch of grade 3 and could have avoided that if I wished,
I was with people who wanted to learn the techniques and choose and
place our own protection, so we were on less treacherous ground; others
with more confidence, who were familiar with summer climbing went of
and dangled themselves of the tip of their ice axes elsewhere.
Tell them what you want and they will do their best to accommodate.

[k***@hotmail.com]

Post by k***@hotmail.com
I did their Introduction to Winter Mountaineering course too a few
years ago.

oops it wasn't the Introductory course I did.
It was the Intermediate Level Courses "Winter Mountaineering"

[Simon Caldwell]

On Thu, 23 Nov 2006 16:01:04 GMT, "sandy saunders"

Post by sandy saunders
Castle Ridge and Ledge Ridge - Ben Nevis

That'll be Ledge Route. Done that one, with some non-climbers, though
right at the end of the season so there was more rock than snow. It's
a grade 2 scramble in summer if that helps you relate to it.

Post by sandy saunders
The Ballachulish Horseshoe

I assume that it's via the whatever-it-is ridge (SE perhaps?) that
makes it a scramble rather than a walk in the summer. Under snow,
there is just one short section that's tricky, and that's more because
of the exposure than the difficulty. I'd guess that this would
probably be one of the first routes you do during the week.

Post by sandy saunders
Car Mor Dearg Arete to Ben Nevis

Done it twice in winter conditions, again it's easy but exposed.

I've not done any of the stuff you've done in the high mountains (I
wish) but judging by photos, you'll be fine with the exposure!

From what I've seen of your posts on urw I don't think you'll have any
trouble. It sound a superb schedule, just hope you get conditions
that allow you to make the most of it! Last season winter didn't
really start until towards the end of February...

S.

[sandy saunders]

Post by Simon Caldwell
From what I've seen of your posts on urw I don't think you'll have any
trouble. It sound a superb schedule, just hope you get conditions
that allow you to make the most of it! Last season winter didn't
really start until towards the end of February...

Cheers Simon, the possible lack of snow is something I have thought about,
which may influence my decision. No point paying good money for winter
climbing only to do cold summer climbing .......I want to be in decent
snow/ice if at all possible. But, sadly the weather is outside my control.
Unfortunately also is that is the only week this winter that I could be
available. Decisions to be made soon!