the beckoning silence

[barry makepeace]

I watched a program on the climbing of the north face of the Eiger on
Saturday. If anyone else watched it can you please tell me why the rescuers
did not send another rope up to the climber to attach above the knot which
had caught in the caribineer

[Steve Pardoe]

Post by barry makepeace
I watched a program on the climbing of the north face of the Eiger on
Saturday. If anyone else watched it can you please tell me why the rescuers
did not send another rope up to the climber to attach above the knot which
had caught in the caribineer

Since the Swiss rescuers were unable to climb the face in the area from
which Toni Kurtz was hanging, it was impossible to take a rope to a point
above him from which it could be lowered. (You can't just "send a rope
up" - it has to be taken by a climber).

It was a few days later that German climbers, better than the Swiss rescuers
(and probably having better conditions, too) arrived on the scene and were
able to reach Kurtz and recover his body and (IIRC) that of Anderer.

It's worth pointing out that much of the detail in the film was inevitably
based on speculation, as none of the four climbers lived to recount their
story first-hand. However, there's no doubt that Kurtz was an exceptional
individual, and made a superhuman effort to get himself to safety. I've
always found the manner of his death intensely moving, and it's easy to see
why Joe Simpson feels the same way.

Steve P

[Steve Pardoe]

Post by barry makepeace

Post by barry makepeace
I watched a program on the climbing of the north face of the Eiger on
Saturday. If anyone else watched it can you please tell me why the

rescuers

Post by barry makepeace
did not send another rope up to the climber to attach above the knot which
had caught in the caribineer

Since the Swiss rescuers were unable to climb the face in the area from
which Toni Kurtz was hanging, it was impossible to take a rope to a point
above him from which it could be lowered. (You can't just "send a rope
up" - it has to be taken by a climber).
It was a few days later that German climbers, better than the Swiss rescuers
(and probably having better conditions, too) arrived on the scene and were
able to reach Kurtz and recover his body and (IIRC) that of Anderer.

Excuse my typos, should be 'Kurz' and 'Angerer'.

Post by barry makepeace
It's worth pointing out that much of the detail in the film was inevitably
based on speculation, as none of the four climbers lived to recount their
story first-hand. However, there's no doubt that Kurtz was an exceptional
individual, and made a superhuman effort to get himself to safety. I've
always found the manner of his death intensely moving, and it's easy to see
why Joe Simpson feels the same way.

Sorry to reply to my own post, but I've just stumbled on this from Joe's own
website, haven't time to read it just now...

http://www.noordinaryjoe.co.uk/article_12.asp

The Indie at http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article13737.ece gives a
fair precis of the history by Stephen Goodwin.

HTH,

Post by barry makepeace
Steve P

[barry makepeace]

The television show said he pulled himself up the rope he was hanging from
and cut the rope on both of his companions. They said he still had not
enough rope so he had to unplait the rope to reach the rescuers. It was not
strong enough to take his weight so they attached a new rope to it which he
pulled up. This rope was still not long enough so they knotted another rope
to it which caught in the caribineer. Surely you would knot another rope to
the bottom of this rope making sure he was able to undo the knot and attach
above him.

Post by barry makepeace

Post by barry makepeace

Post by barry makepeace
I watched a program on the climbing of the north face of the Eiger on
Saturday. If anyone else watched it can you please tell me why the

rescuers

Post by barry makepeace
did not send another rope up to the climber to attach above the knot

which

Post by barry makepeace

Post by barry makepeace
had caught in the caribineer

Since the Swiss rescuers were unable to climb the face in the area from
which Toni Kurtz was hanging, it was impossible to take a rope to a point
above him from which it could be lowered. (You can't just "send a rope
up" - it has to be taken by a climber).
It was a few days later that German climbers, better than the Swiss

rescuers

Post by barry makepeace
(and probably having better conditions, too) arrived on the scene and were
able to reach Kurtz and recover his body and (IIRC) that of Anderer.

Excuse my typos, should be 'Kurz' and 'Angerer'.

Post by barry makepeace
It's worth pointing out that much of the detail in the film was inevitably
based on speculation, as none of the four climbers lived to recount their
story first-hand. However, there's no doubt that Kurtz was an exceptional
individual, and made a superhuman effort to get himself to safety. I've
always found the manner of his death intensely moving, and it's easy to

see

Post by barry makepeace
why Joe Simpson feels the same way.

Sorry to reply to my own post, but I've just stumbled on this from Joe's own
website, haven't time to read it just now...
http://www.noordinaryjoe.co.uk/article_12.asp
The Indie at http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article13737.ece gives a
fair precis of the history by Stephen Goodwin.
HTH,

Post by barry makepeace
Steve P

[Mike Clark]

Post by barry makepeace
The television show said he pulled himself up the rope he was hanging
from and cut the rope on both of his companions. They said he still
had not enough rope so he had to unplait the rope to reach the
rescuers. It was not strong enough to take his weight so they
attached a new rope to it which he pulled up. This rope was still not
long enough so they knotted another rope to it which caught in the
caribineer. Surely you would knot another rope to the bottom of this
rope making sure he was able to undo the knot and attach above him.

But to tie yet another rope to the end they have to be able to reach the
bottom of the rope. If it is hanging out from the face by some distance
they would not be able to reach it at all.

Presumably you've never put yourself in such a position? i.e. trying to
pass a knot on an abseil rope with for example an abseil device?

Now contemplate doing it after an arduous descent in very cold weather,
followed by a major traumatic event. Then add in that you're weak and
suffering from frostbite, so have only limited use of your hands and no
feeling in your fingers.

Having personally been in positions that were not as extreme whilst
pot-holing using Single Rope Technique, or whilst mountaineering in good
weather, I can assure you that even with all the right equipment and in
good physical shape it can take most of your remaining energy to
overcome such obstacles in cold and wet conditions.

What amazes me and probably most other mountaineers is what he actually
did achieve before he finally died.

Mike

[barry makepeace]

Having read the article I think maybe the part about him unravelling the
rope to make it longer may have been fiction. It was a very moving story. I
am not a mountaineer myself but this part of the story i could not
understand.

Post by barry makepeace

Post by barry makepeace

Post by barry makepeace
I watched a program on the climbing of the north face of the Eiger on
Saturday. If anyone else watched it can you please tell me why the

rescuers

Post by barry makepeace
did not send another rope up to the climber to attach above the knot

which

Post by barry makepeace

Post by barry makepeace
had caught in the caribineer

Since the Swiss rescuers were unable to climb the face in the area from
which Toni Kurtz was hanging, it was impossible to take a rope to a point
above him from which it could be lowered. (You can't just "send a rope
up" - it has to be taken by a climber).
It was a few days later that German climbers, better than the Swiss

rescuers

Post by barry makepeace
(and probably having better conditions, too) arrived on the scene and were
able to reach Kurtz and recover his body and (IIRC) that of Anderer.

Excuse my typos, should be 'Kurz' and 'Angerer'.

Post by barry makepeace
It's worth pointing out that much of the detail in the film was inevitably
based on speculation, as none of the four climbers lived to recount their
story first-hand. However, there's no doubt that Kurtz was an exceptional
individual, and made a superhuman effort to get himself to safety. I've
always found the manner of his death intensely moving, and it's easy to

see

Post by barry makepeace
why Joe Simpson feels the same way.

Sorry to reply to my own post, but I've just stumbled on this from Joe's own
website, haven't time to read it just now...
http://www.noordinaryjoe.co.uk/article_12.asp
The Indie at http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article13737.ece gives a
fair precis of the history by Stephen Goodwin.
HTH,

Post by barry makepeace
Steve P

[Carol Haynes]

Hi Steve,

I suspect the confusion arose because he would probably normally abseil
without threading the rope through a carabiner.

If what was described in the film was correct he only added the crab as an
extra friction device because he was in a debilitated state and didn't trust
his ability to adbseil in the normal fashion of the day.

The rescuers probably didn't expect him to have a crab that could trap the
rope. Once in that position it is almost impossible to lift yourself with
one hand whilst fiddling the knot through. It is hard enoygh to do a one
handed pullup and lock yourself into that position but after a night of
hanging in subfreezing conditions and high wind not a chance.

Even if he did got the knot through the crab there was a good chance that he
would have fallen because he would have had no hand free to control the rope
to continue abseiling!

Carol Haynes

[barry makepeace]

That sounds like what happened, but it was very vague on tv and I suspect
the end of the program was a bit of fiction. I know we will never know
exactly what happened. I have watched so much tv lately where the program
has been spoilt by not giving the true facts.
I have never climbed before so I am not very knowledgeable about this.
It just was so sad that this very brave guy died so close to rescue.
I started thinking about it and decided to try and find a newsgroup where i
could find out exactly what did happen.
many thanks
barry makepeace

Post by Carol Haynes
Hi Steve,
I suspect the confusion arose because he would probably normally abseil
without threading the rope through a carabiner.
If what was described in the film was correct he only added the crab as an
extra friction device because he was in a debilitated state and didn't
trust his ability to adbseil in the normal fashion of the day.
The rescuers probably didn't expect him to have a crab that could trap the
rope. Once in that position it is almost impossible to lift yourself with
one hand whilst fiddling the knot through. It is hard enoygh to do a one
handed pullup and lock yourself into that position but after a night of
hanging in subfreezing conditions and high wind not a chance.
Even if he did got the knot through the crab there was a good chance that
he would have fallen because he would have had no hand free to control the
rope to continue abseiling!
Carol Haynes

[Alan Dicey]

Post by barry makepeace
That sounds like what happened, but it was very vague on tv and I suspect
the end of the program was a bit of fiction. I know we will never know
exactly what happened. I have watched so much tv lately where the program
has been spoilt by not giving the true facts.
I have never climbed before so I am not very knowledgeable about this.
It just was so sad that this very brave guy died so close to rescue.
I started thinking about it and decided to try and find a newsgroup where i
could find out exactly what did happen.
many thanks
barry makepeace

Post by Carol Haynes
Hi Steve,
I suspect the confusion arose because he would probably normally abseil
without threading the rope through a carabiner.
If what was described in the film was correct he only added the crab as an
extra friction device because he was in a debilitated state and didn't
trust his ability to adbseil in the normal fashion of the day.
The rescuers probably didn't expect him to have a crab that could trap the
rope. Once in that position it is almost impossible to lift yourself with
one hand whilst fiddling the knot through. It is hard enoygh to do a one
handed pullup and lock yourself into that position but after a night of
hanging in subfreezing conditions and high wind not a chance.
Even if he did got the knot through the crab there was a good chance that
he would have fallen because he would have had no hand free to control the
rope to continue abseiling!
Carol Haynes

I think the rescuers were expecting Kurz to use the classic abseil
method - rope between the legs, up across the chest and shoulder, free
end held in one hand and used to control friction and the descent speed.
It is possible to abseil over a knot in the rope using this method.
But Kurz only had one hand working, and it's relatively easy to fall out
of the classic abseil if you can't steady yourself with the other hand.
So he used the karabiner on his waist-length (not a modern sit sling,
just a length of rope wrapped round the waist several times and tied) -
that way he was always hanging from the krab. But the knot was too
bulky to fit through, and jammed.

[Mike Clark]

Post by barry makepeace
That sounds like what happened, but it was very vague on tv and I
suspect the end of the program was a bit of fiction. I know we will
never know exactly what happened. I have watched so much tv lately
where the program has been spoilt by not giving the true facts.
I have never climbed before so I am not very knowledgeable about this.
It just was so sad that this very brave guy died so close to rescue.
I started thinking about it and decided to try and find a newsgroup where i
could find out exactly what did happen.
many thanks
barry makepeace

There have been several books that describe the events of this tragedy
including the account of the first successful climb of the North
Face of the Eiger written by Heinrich Harrer called "The White Spider".

Modern equipment and techniques are greatly improved such that it is
more likely to be able to deal with such a situation. Nevertheless
mountaineering is inherently dangerous and deaths are not infrequent on
serious routes such as north facing ice climbs of major alpine peaks.

Mike